Raph: Folks, and welcome to this latest
episode of the Small Tech Podcast.

Today, we have another amazing guest.

He is building GridBid, the platform
to simplify your heat pump retrofits.

He is Matt Lanigan.

Hey,

Matt: Hey Raph, thanks for having me.

Raph: How's it going?

Matt: good.

Summer in Vancouver is finally kicking
and excited to get on my bike again.

Raph: I am also very excited to
start biking around some more.

Matt: my, my tires are
still completely empty.

So I think that's my Friday night
activity tonight is actually sitting

down and giving it the TLC it needs
before I go on a ride this weekend.

Raph: Awesome.

Nice.

So you are building GridBid and I'm
of curious, I want to ask you some

questions on how you ended up here.

What was the journey, not just right
before GridBid, but just how, like career

wise, what led you eventually to know,
I'm going to start this company and

I'm going to start it around heat pump
retrofits and building a tech platform

Matt: Sure.

Yeah.

So originally my academic
background was in civil engineering.

I did a technology diploma,
an undergraduate degree.

And as soon as I was out of university
at 21, I started working in consulting.

So did engineering consulting
for municipal land development.

So the roads we drive on, the
bridges we drive on, the pipes

that feed our buildings, water.

And I continued to evolve in that space.

I worked in construction, I managed
construction projects, I worked in

government with policy team and putting
together strategic policies around

net carbon zero buildings, as well
as other infrastructure projects.

During this time, I
started to hear a lot more.

Buzz around heat pumps and just
being someone who loved and

always followed decarbonization.

I started following it a bit more and
then I started to hear a whole whack

of problems from contractors who I
knew, homeowners who started to get

heat pumps retrofitted and that's
what enabled me to start to take the

deep dive into what the problems were.

Raph: It's funny, because I
think since I met you, which was

what, like a year and a half ago?

Something like that?

I feel like I've heard now the word heat
pump just keeps popping in my life, and

I'm, It's funny like, once you get exposed
to something, you start recognizing

it, you start seeing it around you.

okay, so you decide to the heat pumps
are this thing that is, that makes

sense to you why build a tech platform?

Matt: Sure.

So one of the main challenges with
home decarbonization, particularly

detached homes, it's very clunky and
currently we rely on homeowners and

for a lot of enterprise SaaS tools
and so on, it's super easy to scale.

You build a stack, you work with
businesses and it takes an organic

growth for homeowners to, to understand
the process and to be able to actually

go through it simply, we can apply
project management, best practices and

first principles, which is something
that I've had a ton of time with.

into something that can guide
homeowners through a retrofit.

So rather than acting as a consultant
and, calling them, sending lots of emails,

you can automate a lot of practices that
guide homeowners through the practice.

And this is what makes something scalable
and allows the tens of millions of

homes that will ultimately make the
switch to make it sooner and easier.

Raph: Nice and is this, is
your first time building a tech

Matt: It's my first time building a tech
product, and it's very different than

building a bridge or a building, which
is what I had done for nearly 10 years.

Raph: Yeah, a little bit.

I assume the iteration
cycles are a little faster.

Matt: One thing that's been, one thing
that's been such a challenge is with

infrastructure and projects, you spend so
much time getting it right the first time.

There's no ifs, ands,
or buts about it, right?

And, my, my co founder he's brilliant.

He's been such a help because he's nope.

Matt, we ship it.

And then we figure it out.

Then we iterate.

And man, I remember the first
couple of times we did that.

I literally had a tough time sleeping.

Raph: Oh, no you hear this, Agile, right?

Like, Agile product development practices
it makes a lot of sense if you come

from the tech world, but then I see
Something like a bridge or any kind

of infrastructure, and I'm like, oh,
I feel like the things, the ways that

I've learned to build things just do not
apply to so many things in the world.

Matt: Yeah, and you know what?

When I was in the last year of working
in infrastructure and project management,

I took an accreditation exam called
Project Management Professional, PMP.

And 50 percent of it is Waterfall,
which is that type of project

delivery, and the other half is Agile.

And that's when I was starting to
tinker and think of ideas for applying

software to some of the problems that
I saw in the built environment space.

And I'm like, okay, on paper it makes
sense, and then, you tie together the

kind of underpinnings of Waterfall
that I've had for so many years.

And then bring it into
software is has been quite the

learning curve, let's call it.

Raph: But it's been fun.

Matt: It's been a lot of fun, man.

I mean, it's great to build
something that you hope will

support people decarbonizing homes.

We've had customers go through who
have just been so thrilled and such

big champions of what we're building.

It's been incredibly fulfilling, obviously
a huge challenge as you and many other

listeners know, but the fulfillment and
excitement and energy you get from it

is like nothing I've ever experienced.

Raph: And, you're doing all of this with,
so you've got a, a business partner,

you've got a CTO and you've got other
people you're, or is that it's the two of

you and you were in an accelerator, right?

what's, your ecosystem?

Who are you building

Matt: are we building with?

So it's myself and my co founder, Jacob,
who has spent a lot of time building

software The better part of a decade.

And he's been a great guiding force in
how to develop and deliver this thing.

And it's been very complimentary with
my background in built environment and

project management and his in software.

So we make a great team.

Otherwise, it's really just him and I.

We do work with a number of
freelancers and the Accelerator

that we were a part of, Foresight
Canada, has been a tremendous help.

So we started working with Foresight
In the fall of last year through

sort of different schools, Launch
Deliver, which are CEO and CTO

school, respectively, investor
readiness programs, access to capital.

And now we're a residency company.

So we're working with tons of different
mentors on different subjects.

And they've been, it's, I only have
great things to say about Foresight.

It's been a great program.

Raph: Anything in particular that you
learned that was just, I don't know,

something mind blowing or something that
just like completely changed the way

you think about what you were doing?

Matt: I think a lot of things were
particularly in the CEO school.

I mean, I know and I understand
the problem very well.

But a lot of programs and lectures and
processes as part of Foresight allowed

me to zoom out and better understand
that, okay, there's a pain point

here, but if you look at the entire
value chain, it's actually a byproduct

of another pain point elsewhere.

That was obviously a process that we
understood when we did our customer

discovery, because we did a lot of
customer discovery, but Foresight and its

programs did a very good job of allowing
me to zoom out and look at the big picture

and how we can best fit in what is a very
nuanced ecosystem and evolving space.

Raph: Out of curiosity
what does that mean?

What did you find out about
this like broader ecosystem?

Matt: main issues that made
me look into this problem were

issues that homeowners faced.

Raph: Okay.

Matt: Spending a lot of money, not getting
the right system installed, perhaps

it was the system that was too big.

If you have a system that's too big,
it cycles incorrectly, it costs more

on energy, and they tend to die sooner.

And a lot of this is actually A
process of struggles that contractors

are having with assessing homes, the
calculations that can be given to them

at certain times, and to be able to
solve homeowners problems by also solving

contractors problems at the same time
was something that required a ton of

massaging, and we're still actively doing.

But that's one of the biggest takeaways
was with some of these two sided things,

or when you look at the longer value
chain, there's Issues littered everywhere.

And in some cases, if you help someone
someplace in the beginning, it actually

pays dividends in the end to potentially
another user, another customer.

Raph: That's super cool.

With that in mind, like, so
the mechanics of how you're

solving these problems, right?

So you've got this, interface.

I got to hop on, on a call with
you guys a little while ago and

check it out, which was pretty fun.

How did you come up
with that UI, that flow?

What's it been like talking to, users
and getting them to walk through this?

Like, how's that whole
process worked out for you

Matt: Yeah, you were one of the very first
people to set eyes on the MVP, which is

now live and being used by homeowners.

What we ended up doing was the
latter half of last year, we actually

brought on some homeowners and we
managed the project for them manually.

From day one, what they were looking to
do, what they wanted to get out of it

what challenges they saw what things were.

Absolutely no brainers in what things
we could potentially do, and I honestly

just did it as if it was a project I
was handed to at a previous role, so I

had some hypotheses on reports that we
could generate and things that we could

automate right away, and we started to
do that with the first few customers, and

then as we saw more and more, we got more
feedback, We better understood what we

could automate right away, what we should
hold off on until, we get more volume

or perhaps some more developer help.

And that's what sort of built
this first iteration, which is

really a, as you saw, a dashboard
for homeowners, where they can.

Store documents, we can store documents,
there's bidirectional communication, and

depending on what step in the retrofit
they're in, there's new reports and

insights based on contractor quotes, or
walkthrough and commissioning summaries,

or rebates that they may be eligible for.

And we're excited to build onto that,
but this first iteration is something

that we can confidently say was
built through lived experience and

feedback from actual customers.

Raph: That's cool.

And so I'm curious, like when you did
this like very manual work, did you

still have like a digital interface?

Like they would submit something,
but then you go do the work or

it, was it completely face to
face or like, how did you do that?

of curious, specifically with the
context like, what is an MVP, right?

Like people like have so many
thoughts about like what that

means, but to me, this is like,
this sounds like an MVP, right?

Like testing the value of the thing that
you're hoping to deliver, not by building

it out, but by doing something else.

But I'm curious, like how much of the
sort of testing the built assumptions,

if that makes sense, like the, or the
assumptions around the end product

where you're doing versus like just the
value that you're hoping to deliver.

Matt: First days, it was primarily
just emails, phone calls, I'd

send them articles we'd call.

In some cases, we had a FaceTime and
they'd walk me around their house

and point out certain things that,
that they felt were like cold spots

in their home or spots where they'd
like to hang out in their home.

And really, it was just
like a Google Drive.

They drop in some things.

I would share some things with them.

They'd take a look and then
we'd hop on another call.

And through that, we got more confidence
in saying, okay, this is a report we

can actually standardize, or this is
a process that happens in every case.

And that's what's actually allowed us to
build what you saw last month, I suppose.

Raph: yeah, something like that a few
weeks ago, a month ago, two months ago.

I don't know.

Okay, so you do all of that and then
you put this thing out or to, to some

people before you, you actually launch
publicly and then you launch publicly.

What's the feedback been like?

Matt: What's the feedback been like?

So obviously the, I think we had six
to 10 people with varying backgrounds,

people in product, people who are
in management consulting, we had

so many different people take a
look at it before it went live.

And what's great is there are a
lot of things that were consistent

from one person to the other.

And then there were some things
that were unique about each

individual person, right?

Someone who focused on product had
a couple interesting things to say.

Someone with an engineering and
construction background had a

couple of interesting things to say.

Now we have this list, which is
something we're excited to tackle,

but also difficult to prioritize.

Um, first, first few customers that
are now on, on the platform it's

always a unique conversation to
have because it's a completely new

way of going about a home retrofit.

It's always been call a contractor
who's been recommended to you

through a neighbor or Google reviews.

Or a friend and start to do
the song and dance with them.

Whereas now it's sign up on this platform
to get physical work done at my home.

Like what?

So there's always a conversation there and
it's been interesting to share the value

and the process and why it's so valuable
with Efficient Homes today, and what

happens today and what happens next, and
once when we do have that conversation,

or they read the messaging on the platform
when they log on, It makes a ton of sense.

But the education of the value while
trying to deliver value is a tightrope

that, that we're always trying to work on.

Yes.

Raph: So I'm really
curious about that too.

So what's your strategy to, to
bring people into the platform?

Cause I mean, if know, this
doesn't exist, then you, how do

you, are you doing Google ads?

And if you do Google ads, how
do you convince someone who's

presumably just looking for a
contractor or whatever to come in?

Like, how do you do that education?

How do you do that sort of massaging
that journey so that it makes sense

for your product and for that customer?

Matt: is very much a real time
thing that we're working through.

We do have a small SEM budget
strategic marketing budget.

We do see quite a bit of
volume through SEO as well.

We do have Geographic specific
landing pages for Burnaby, for North

Vancouver, for Richmond and so on.

We do publish a lot of blogs.

We are pretty active on the socials.

I do spend a lot of time
at home trade shows.

We do have a booth and

that's an opportunity to
speak to hundreds of people.

Whether or not someone I actually
speak to wants to work together or

they know their neighbor wants to, we
have gotten customers through actually

every single one of those channels.

So SEM, SEO.

Ory Kratos and word of
mouth which is great.

But the actual education
component is tricky.

Our, we have a cost calculator on our
landing page and that's where a lot

of people end up going to get an idea.

And then from there we'll do a follow
up or there's an educational email.

And with our platform now, our
landing page has a two minute

explainer video of my floating head.

Which one, I think instills a bit of
trust that, there's an actual person

and there's a service to do with it,
but it also shows basically a fast

forward of an entire project lifecycle,
which takes around two months and it's

actually compressed into two minutes.

So it shows the plan report, it shows
the quote compare, it shows the rebate

summary, it shows the walkthrough summary.

And it shows why these things
exist and what problems exist

today and how this process is
alleviating them of those pains.

Raph: Awesome.

And what's next?

So you've got it out in the
wild you're you're getting some

clients you, what are you building
next or what are you doing next?

Matt: right now it's just building that,
that trust with products like this.

They rely heavily ultimately on, on
word of mouth and network effects.

So we're spending a lot of time
here in the lower mainland.

It's only been launched here
in the lower mainland of

Vancouver in the Fraser Valley.

So a lot of time spent with grassroots
organizations at home trade shows.

Working with homeowners in the region.

We're focused on heat pump installs
right now, primarily because these are

the things that have at least a big
benefit from a consumer perspective,

significant rebates, home cooling
reduced energy bills, assuming

that the system was installed well.

And from there, we want to start
to include other home efficiency

retrofits, so EV chargers and solar
panels, and window insulation upgrades.

We want to be that one stop
shop that can guide a homeowner

through any sort of energy saving
or energy efficiency retrofit.

Raph: I love it.

That's awesome.

That sounds like a pretty, pretty
epic mission for like the longer

Matt: It's a big goal because we do
have homeowners and contractors on

either side, and we want to make sure
we make life easier for both of them.

And heatpumps is the language
we're speaking right now.

And once when we expand, whether
it's regions or scopes hard to

say what's going to come first.

That'll be dictated by feedback.

But yeah, each and every one of those
scopes have their own set of challenges.

But it's very exciting to think that we
can start to add more locations or scopes.

Raph: Totally.

I'm curious, like, what's, like for you,
what, would you prefer to work on next?

Is it adding scope or
is it adding regions?

Matt: Ah, that's a good question.

I think adding scopes would be a lot of
fun because We could see one customer

completely transform their home with
our platform, which would be a very

Raph: That is

Matt: right?

Someone could go from a oil furnace
and a fairly like leaky, inefficient

home that purely relies on the grid for
energy to a home that could potentially

be self sustaining with solar panels.

Have a backup battery and have a heat
pump and they could effectively be

their own little micro grid, right?

So I think including other scopes in
the short term would be incredible

to just completely be able to
transform an individual home.

Raph: Yeah.

That sounds super compelling.

What would be your like top,
top thing to, to tackle next?

If it, yeah.

Out of those scopes.

Matt: It's a function of what happens
with our energy provider here in BC.

There's a lot of shifts in the
world of how they charge homeowners

per kilowatt hour of energy use.

If when it changes there may be a very
compelling business case for homeowners

to start to switch to solar and get
smart electrical panels electrical

panel panels that are smart in the
sense that they understand what the

grid's demand is at any given time.

And when a home should actually
be taking energy from the grid

versus when it should actually be
feeding energy back to the grid.

Um, that would be something that
would be a lot of fun to, to tackle.

Again, very challenging, but I think
depending on how energy rates roll out

in the foreseeable future, that may
bring a pretty compelling business case

to homeowners to start to look to that.

Raph: Yeah.

That's cool.

I actually, that makes me think too like
the funding that's available out there.

how do you interact the
funding and bringing.

Like government funding to,
to support these projects.

Matt: the funding is probably the
most mobile target of everything.

Raph: Okay.

Matt: been around, which has been a bit
more than a calendar year, there's been

a federal rebate program that has been
pulled, the Greener Homes grant has been

pulled as they ran out of funding, and
there's been new funds that have been

handed over to the provincial government.

So

currently these programs have independent
portals that only homeowners can access,

which we can help to some degree as we
move homeowners through this process,

we pull out the necessary and relevant
information to make those applications and

that portal easier for them to navigate.

Now, ultimately where we'd love to
be is to actually plug into these

systems and just feed them the
information when the homeowner has done

their retrofit and the contractors.

Have the work signed off.

Of course, these programs
are a tough egg to crack.

Let's call it that, but

We've chatted with a few folks.

They're aware that we're around and
hopefully we can demonstrate the trust

and productivity to be able to show
that we can actually help them with

their back end of managing rebates.

Raph: Awesome.

Cool.

If you had to talk to yourself, a year and
a half, two years ago, what would be like

the main thing you would tell yourself?

Okay, look out for this when you hop
into this project yeah, what would

you, what advice would you give

Matt: Man, that's a very good question.

I haven't been asked that.

I would say, you know,
honestly, take care of yourself.

It's it's a marathon, not a sprint.

And sometimes you feel like
you're sprinting a marathon.

And to be able to Get outside,
take a deep breath, go on your

run, go on your bike ride.

I, during the winter and
fall months, I love yoga.

So I've been doing a lot of yoga.

I think it would just be, there was
a period in time, about a four month

stretch where I completely neglected that.

There was just RFPs, there were
customers, we were in a pretty, pretty

heavy sprint just with the two of us.

And that stuff can go by the wayside.

And it can, Really wreak havoc.

So just take care of yourself.

Take a deep breath.

Like it's a struggle.

Absolutely.

And yeah it's just being aware that
you do need to take a bit of time.

Raph: awesome.

Sweet.

That sounds like great
advice to pass to you.

and know, hopefully anyone who's listening
can take that into account if they're

hopping on a journey that's like yours.

So with that, this is the small
tech podcast do you have a small

tech product that you want to shout

Matt: Yeah, I think staying on the
subject A app that I use, that I've

used for several years, Insight Timer,
it's similar to Calm it's effectively

like a guided meditation app that
you can plug into and listen to.

And it chills you out a bit.

It sends you some friendly reminders at
a time that you would typically do it.

That's been something I've used
for years and will continue to.

So that's a product I've
always have and always will.

Love and use.

Raph: Fantastic.

Matt, this was amazing.

I, really appreciate you coming
on the podcast and super fun

chatting with you as always.

And yeah, I feel like I learned
a lot from this conversation.

So yeah, I appreciate

Matt: No, I'd love to be able
to share the story and any

insights, and thanks for having me.

Raph: Cool.

Matt: Take care.

Raph: Bye.

Folks.

That was my interview with
Matt Lannigan of grid bid.

You can find him and
GridBid at gridbid.co.

And I want to thank him so
much for coming on the podcast.

I learned a lot.

I hope you did as well.

You can find the podcast
at smalltechpodcast.com.

Where you can listen to this episode
past episodes, you can find all

the links to all of the different
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And subscribe on YouTube.

Give us a rating.

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I, it really helps out
we really appreciate it.

We're a small team and we'll take
all the help that we can get.

You can find

EC at ec.io

Raph: io.

so if you need any help building
a platform, a tech product, a

cloud enabled service, anything
like that, shoot us a message.

We would love to help.

And thanks again for listening.

I feel like I have not been telling
you who I am anymore, so I am Raph.

I'm one of the co-founders of EC and
yeah, I really appreciate you listening.

And with that, we all want
to do some good in the world.

So go out there and build something.

Good folks.

I'll see you in the next one.

So yeah.