Raphaël: Hey folks, and welcome
to the small tech podcast.

I'm Raph from EC.

And today we have an
amazing, wonderful guest.

She is the director of Curiko, an
instructor at Simon Fraser University's

Social Innovation Certificate Program,
was the co founder of Kudoz, has done

a variety of things with InWithForward
and Possibilities and all kinds

of great work in sort of social
impact and now tech things as well.

She is Janey Roh Hi, Janey!

Janey: Hi!

Raphaël: How's it going?

Janey: Good, how are you doing?

Raphaël: Yeah, I'm doing all right.

I would love to hear about your
background and how it led you into sort

of tech things like Kudoz and Curiko
and what that journey has been like.

Janey: I probably would have considered
myself one of the like the least

technical people in that kind of a vein.

But yeah I started out actually
in education and that's where

I found myself then moving
into the social service sector.

I used to work in pre employment
programs in Vancouver and then moved

to working with Possibilities, a
large organization that supports

adults with a cognitive disability.

And I was managing between
11 to 13 different.

I've been working on and was feeling a bit
stuck stuck around how we could get folks

more involved and engaged with community.

And then this posting came up
of joining something called

the Burnaby Starter Project.

Through partnership with the other
organizations Burnaby Association for

Community Inclusion, Kinsight along with
a social design agency, InWithForward.

And they had been putting out a
posting saying they were going to do

a research project over a period of
10 weeks to explore social isolation

and loneliness in the city of Burnaby.

And I thought, wow, this is a great
opportunity to figure out a way to get

better connected with community, and so
I joined that project, we moved into a

social housing complex in Burnaby for
a period of 10 weeks, spent lots of

times time with folks that we're living
there and in the surrounding areas to

see what their day to day life was like.

And out of that project came a
number of ideas to prototype,

and one of them was Kudoz.

And Kudoz was an experience
platform connecting people with and

without disabilities to in person
experiences across the Lower Mainland.

And that ran for a period of about years.

Seven, eight years and ran quite well
until the pandemic and the partnership

that had formed Kudoz also had a number
of other prototypes that were running

alongside of it with a shared mission
around raising, disability awareness,

building community reducing stigma.

And we took the opportunity during the
pandemic to bring a number of those

prototypes together under one, which is
now called Curiko, and Curiko launched a

couple years ago, and so I've fallen into
this Tech kind of space accidentally.

And it's been really exciting
and a lot of learning.

I'm still constantly learning as I go.

But that's what led us here.

Raphaël: Amazing.

I'm curious when you did
the program and then you

eventually set up Kudoz, was it always

with the intention of building
something Web-based or like tech

or was that not necessarily an
outcome that you were looking for?

Janey: Yeah, I think the intention
back then was always to have

something that was web based.

Kudoz also had a mobile app that
was developed to accompany it.

And the mobile app was developed
because we did a lot of research

around How do people learn?

And how do people learn best?

And we knew that reflection was a
key component of really internalizing

some of the learning that someone
might have from an experience.

And so the mobile app took a series
of photos that would then be able to

go on somebody's profile that then
people could ask them about afterwards

and, see how things went, what did
they learn from it, but also What

did they learn about themselves?

How did they feel after
that particular experience?

And did that spark anything different for
them around how they viewed themselves

or what they wanted to do or how they
wanted to spend their time in the future?

Raphaël: Yeah.

That's that's really interesting.

I feel like, especially just
thinking about tech in the sort

of big tech perspective, right?

The way that people interact with
each other and themselves and

understanding themselves has your.

Like perspective on like how those
things work over the years changed

or I feel like the whole ecosystem
has changed in like our thinking of

like how we live with technology.

Yeah.

Janey: Yeah, I think for us, and I
think like with like lots of folks

when we first started Kudoz and then
we're moving to Kyrko, I think over

the years our learning a lot has
been around accessibility technology.

And I think That is often
really taken for granted.

A lot of the accessibility tools, even
themselves, or plugins people have on

their websites, aren't that accessible.

They require some level of literacy
maybe aren't that compatible with

screen readers, those kinds of things.

I think for us, we wanted to create
something that was not just user

friendly, but also created a really
delightful, joyful experience then would

be reflective of what types of experiences
they might have through utilizing the

platform and meeting community members
and, sharing experience either, with

podcasting or knitting or kickboxing
or brewery tours or whatever was on

the catalog during that period of time.

And I think for us during the pandemic.

just really saw how I think how much
people were really isolated, and so

technology became a real tool to be able
to stay connected and so there was a

number of folks for whom technology was
still a barrier, and so spending some time

to ensure people had the right equipment
the right access, that you have stable

internet connection, and I think those are
a lot of things that lots of folks really

just take for granted, but, we had a lot
of that too in the early days of Kudoz, so

we actually used to have a loaner program.

Where we would collect, you know,
older devices and donations of devices,

and we would issue them for free to
folks because the Kudoz mobile app

didn't require an internet connection.

You could use it without, and so
that was like a bit of a gateway

for people to start using technology
and then get familiar with it.

And then a number of those folks
actually then went on to get

their own devices afterwards.

Raphaël: Oh, cool, there's something
like really interesting to think

about there in that

I feel like some of those
things are possible in the

context of small tech, right?

Like things that are very like community
driven, that's very focused on connection,

whereas the big companies are very focused
on like the metrics and how many likes

you get on a thing and that sort of thing.

I think there's something really

beautiful in how Curiko, and the

way that you work with community
and really thinking about the people

as opposed to just the engagement
stats or anything like that.

So I love that.

I'm curious, is there anything that you
found like over the years, either when

you first got into this or even just over
time things that you found surprising as

you got into building technology, I'm sure
there's plenty surprising or unusual or

yeah, just things that you did not expect
as you got into building tech products.

Janey: Yeah, I think lots of I think
just how nuanced usability is, right?

I think that piece, and I think
also just in terms of like, how

much time things will take, right?

I think on the surface, it looks like,
we create like beautiful designs and

then Oh, how difficult would it be
to implement something like this?

And then really learning that actually
like what is required on the back end

to make some of those things happen.

I think like even us having our
booking system and developing our

own bespoke calendar system to fit
in with the platform was a lot of

learning timeline, scope, budget, all
that kind of project management stuff.

And I think how many other tools
there are available for us to

be able to utilize and plug in.

And also, that a number of those
organizations really trying to find

organizations to work and tools that
we utilize that also share our values.

that was like a big piece too, is that
approaching these different places

and asking them if they had considered
how they could make their products

more accessible to the broader public,
especially to smaller non profits

where, you know, the pricing of some
of these plugins or, tools that you

could utilize are really a barrier
for people to be able to engage with.

Raphaël: yeah, that actually makes
me think of a question, accessibility

means a lot of things, right?

It can be screen readers, but it can
also be just the contrast of text on

a page, or it can be making sure that
the language is accessible to someone.

It means so many things.

And how do you think about that
in the context of designing a

product, designing an experience?

Yeah how do you frame your thinking
around, like, all of the different forms

of accessibility and I guess, yeah,
how does that inform, or how do you

see that reflected in those products
that you were just talking about?

Do they generally consider
all of those things?

Are there some that do better?

How does that come across?

Janey: Yeah, that's a great question.

And I think like also a great question
for our UX designers, and Boyd, right?

Because think they're a big part
of I think part of it is our

own practice and our methods
of co design and co production.

so every time, that Boyd and Raph are
working on a new feature they are thinking

about the accessibility considerations
and they're constantly developing and

testing that with our community members.

So they're getting feedback.

And so that is all built into that
design process, that we're making

sure we're not just trying to adhere
to the regulatory standards of

accessibility, how does it actually
work for the people that are using it?

And how does this feel like that
is being designed and produced

alongside of our community members?

And so I think that's where we gain also
the most insights, is that we think oh,

this looks fine, I think when we were
doing some user testing, I was able to

sit in on some sections sessions, and
people were like, oh, they had no idea

that they needed to scroll down the
page to get more information, right?

Because if you don't have any
indicators there, where is that?

But also in terms of just like
people and you know how big certain

things should be or where certain
things are placed so that they don't

accidentally click the same thing
because it's too close to another thing.

Just those kinds of pieces and so I think
for us doing a lot of that those pieces

those sessions with community members.

It's been really helpful.

Raphaël: Yeah awesome and do you find
that the tools that you plug into, do

they generally think about accessibility?

How do they align?

Janey: Yeah I'm sure there are some
considerations, I think that you

meantioned contrast, readability,
those kinds of things, but I

think there's definitely barriers.

There's barriers for me, too, to
be able to use some of them, right?

In particular now that everything
has two factor authentication, or

that you have to be able to use
like an SSO to sign on to something.

Like these are some things that
I think are not that can present

some barriers for folks for sure.

And I think there's a lot of places where
they're like, every site has like an

FAQ or something like that and some of
them are a little bit more robust than

others or have a short series of videos.

But I think a lot of them have
an assumption that you have some,

technological knowledge even engaging
with some of their tutorials or ways that

you know, you can help and oftentimes,
I'm just trying to reach a live person.

Raphaël: Yep.

Do those exist?

Live

I feel the internet is just bots now.

Janey: There's a lot of gatekeeping, I
think live people got to do the You've got

to do a live chat, which is really a bot.

Then you've got to send the email.

Then sometimes I have to send a message
through social media in some way.

And then, and usually Hey,
can I just talk to somebody?

takes a bit of steps.

Yeah.

Raphaël: Yep.

That also makes me think of,
is there funding specifically

for accessibility projects?

Janey: I think for us, we've
been really fortunate with

some of our funding sources.

We do receive most of our funding from
Community Living British Columbia,

as well as some grants that we've
received through either Vancouver

Foundation, Israeli Foundation, and
then also Vancouver Coastal Health.

And then of course, with the
partnership with the the four

organizations, there's support
provided in numerous ways with that.

And so I think what we found to be a bit
tricky is that people, Some places are

willing to fund the R& D, the development
costs, then funding stops, and then

they don't want to fund implementation
and then the ongoing, operations of the

product, the results of that R& D process.

And so I think we have also learned
from us in this space and you

do the tech world is that you.

Have to constantly and
consistently invest in the R& D

because technology is changing.

Things are changing quite rapidly
sometimes and others less but that

you can't build one thing and then
just leave it for, five, six years

and then revisit it then because,
It's been out of date or things aren't

being as responsive as they need to.

And I think it's also not being
responsive to the changing wants

and desires of the community.

And so that has been like a big
learning for us in terms of like, how

do we account for funding and how do
we budget for that ongoing R& D piece?

Raphaël: Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense with that in
mind, in this sort of social impact space

what tips would you have, for if someone,
if a social entrepreneur was listening

to this and was thinking of building a
product to serve their community, what

are some things that you would advise them
to think about when it comes to funding?

Janey: I think look for.

Places, organizations that
align with your values.

I think the big piece of it.

and that really see the longer term
vision of what you're trying to achieve.

I think for us with Curiko, the big
part is that, we are trying to build

a community and build a community of
people with and without disabilities and

challenge Ableism and challenge stigma.

We had read some recent literature by
Tessa Charlesworth that said, at the

current rate it would take 200 years
before disability, internalized disability

bias was neutralized and that was a
shocking stat for us so I think it's to

try and seek out people that also feel
like that is too long and that we've got

to work together to make headway on that.

And so I think, being able to find
funders that are real allies and are

real champions and supporters of the
vision, and also share those values

around and around our Curiko values
of, building community ensuring

people are living flourishing lives.

I think that's the biggest
kind of learning us.

Raphaël: Yeah.

Is there anything operationally
that you would think about?

As I think even just like funding
cycles and stuff like that.

Janey: I think more money
isn't always better.

think that's the thing, right?

For us it's, people feel like you
need all this money, or you need all

this capital in order to continue
things going, but you can start small.

And more money means more reporting that
you have to be accountable for, and you

have to be really careful about whether
you want to receive that or not, and does

that add to your kind of vision and the
strategy that you have moving forward.

Does it adhere with your values or
is it going to sway you away from it?

And oftentimes, you will try and contort
yourself to fit a particular funding guide

template or funding guide regulations
or all of those kinds of things and then

you need to then figure out how you're
going to report on those additional pieces

to your funders, which then creates not
just, I think, more work, but it also

creates the wrong kind of work, that's not
who we're really wanting to prioritize.

We're wanting to prioritize community
not just, a checkbox on a funding report.

Raphaël: Yep.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

I've heard of people in just broader
sort of startup space, also talking

about things like R& D funding.

And how it moves them off course,
instead of serving their customers,

they're serving the funders.

Janey: Yeah.

I that, I think part of that is
in the power structure, right?

Is that inevitably when somebody
is giving you money in a large

portion of money you feel like,
oh, I've got to align with that.

But I think choosing funders that are also
prioritizing the right like the community

members, the people for whom your product
or your intervention or your service

or whatever you're developing is for.

Raphaël: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

How does the broader sort of program
design and how does that intersect

with specifically the tech product and
the different stakeholders, funders,

the team, admin team, and the users.

And I guess, there must be others
too, but those I feel are the sort of

three that I generally think about.

But how do those things all come together?

And are there what are the tensions
that you find most I don't know, that

pop up on the most regular basis?

And how do you handle them?

Janey: I feel like we're in a
pretty good place with that in of

we have really great funders that
I think allow a lot of freedom and

flexibility in the development.

I think what happens with community
and the tech sometimes is our community

members, are really wide ranging we'll
do some testing with some folks, and

usability of a particular feature,
some things might come up, but then it

doesn't come up, like something else
comes up with a different segment of

users, and then a different segment of
users, and so for us on our side, it's

like which direction do we go in which
segment of users are you prioritizing?

And is there a bit of a happy medium,
if you were to about like the Venn

diagram, the circle, like where's
the overlap of all three, and what's

like an elegant solution that could
meet the desires of all of them.

But I think for us, it's also
understanding you can't always

make everything work for everybody.

And so it's.

Trying to really understand what's
working for whom, when, what's

not, and then using that learning
to then move into development.

Raphaël: Yeah.

Cool.

I feel like I had
another question on that.

So Curiko there's

a lot of stuff.

I think we at EC are very focused on like
the thing that shows up on the screen,

but there's so much more than that.

There's the sort of the in person
experiences and events and the actual

like community itself, like the, Managing
those relationships between people.

Yeah.

Could you talk a bit more about how
those relationships, how you build

them, how do you build trust and how all
of those things come back to product?

Janey: Yeah, so we've got a
number of roles on the team

that are community facing roles.

So we have a curation team that works
with hosts to build experiences, put

them up on the platform, works with hosts
on And ongoing sort of engagement with

those experiences, offer any coaching or
troubleshooting if things might come up.

And then we've got coaches and coaches
work with folks that are engaging

with the community as participants.

And who might want some coaching around
facing a particular barrier and building

strategies and then we have, of course,
like our volunteer moderators that support

hosts with online experiences to make
sure they run smooth so that the host can

really focus on an experience and not have
to worry about the technical aspects of

the running and alongside of all those
roles also comes a series of, as you

mentioned, in person interactions outside
of those experiences and building the

relationship and building community and
so really we utilize the Curiko platform

as a tool to support many of those
ongoing interactions and relationships.

And so I think that's we're often have
this conversation of does do we feel

like the platform reflects how do we
make more of our community voices or

stories be shared through the platform?

And that's where we're always
constantly like iterating.

And right now we're working on redoing
a little bit of the homepage and things

like that, so that we're able to include
some of the things that we feel like

are not being shown as much as we'd
like it to currently on the website.

Raphaël: Yep.

That makes sense.

I feel like that covers
most of my questions.

Is there anything else
you want to talk about

with Curiko or

any final tips or learnings or anything?

Janey: Oh, final tips and learning.

There's always learning to be had, sure.

like a real journey.

I would just encourage your users if
they want to check it out, it's curiko.ca

it's open and free to everybody.

It is really a place for people that are
wanting and looking for different ways to

connect either with themselves or other
people or places or culture you name it.

Yeah, I think it's just an open
space and I think for us, it's

like constantly reflecting on how
we can utilize Curiko and tech,

build and foster these meaningful
connections within our community.

Raphaël: Amazing.

So last question, \ small tech
product that you use that does

something good in your life.

Janey: Yeah.

I was thinking about it and I was like I
use some, this Seesaw app, and it is an

app That I think schools use to be able
to give parents a little bit of a snapshot

of what happens over the course of a
day or a project in their child's life.

And so I have a little nine year old, and
so I'm able to, And you can also through

the app see photos of what he's doing or
working on or who he's spending time with.

And that's been a great point of, shared
conversation with us, because at the end

of the day, oftentimes when you ask your
Your child, what, what did you do today?

Or how did things go?

always was good.

so you get varying details
of things that happen.

And so I think for me, the Seesaw
app helps me stay connected with

what's happening in his day to day.

And to be able to, if I go back to
the old reflection, it's to be able

to help them also reflect and be like,
Oh, what did you learn from that?

Or how did you feel when
you were doing that?

Or who are you spending time with?

And so that helps us stay connected.

Raphaël: That's awesome.

Cool.

Alrighty.

Thank you

so much, Janey.

Janey: Thank you.

Raphaël: Folks.

That was my chat with
Janey Roh from Curiko.

And I so appreciate her taking
the time to chat with me.

It was an amazing conversation.

I hope you all learned something from it.

That is it from the small
tech podcast this time around.

And we will see you in the next
episode, in the meantime, we all want

to do something good in the world.

So go out there and build something.

Good folks.

See ya.